In a discussion hosted by the University of Glasgow’s John Smith Centre on 28 January, former Secretary of State Michael Gove and former Scottish First Minister Humza Yousaf discussed surviving politics, disinformation in the age of social media, and the political handling of the pandemic.
Before the event, chaired by Professor Sara Carter, had even begun, the audience received a reminder of what politics can look like, as protestors gathered outside the venue, booing those who entered the event, and made themselves heard for the duration of the discussion.
Sara Carter started the discussion by “addressing the talking point head on.” Michael Gove’s article in The Jewish Chronicle, which suggested the Israeli Defence Force (IDF) should receive a Nobel Peace Prize for their work since 7 October 2023. Carter admitted this had “enraged quite a few people, including some of the people outside [of the event].” In response, Michael Gove defended his article, saying “I’m a very strong supporter of the state of Israel, if you needed any reminder of why the Jewish people need a state and a military force to protect them it is is the fact that we are meeting here on the 80th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz-Birkenau.” He defended the IDF, suggesting that “no armed forces will ever operate without making mistakes” but “Israel is defending itself.”
He admitted that the ideology of Hamas “is not the ideology of the majority of people in Gaza”, but it is “eliminationist and antisemitic…those killers revelled in their work.” Gove told the audience that “steps had to be taken to ensure that the capacity of Hamas to kill again at scale which they made clear was their intention, was dealt with.” Ending the defense of his article, Gove said, “I want to stand up for the people of Israel. After what has happened in history, it is the responsibility of those who are not Jewish to ensure that the Jewish State survives after the horrors of the last century.”
Having been one of the most outspoken politicians on the ongoing conflict, Sara Carter turned to Humza Yousaf for his opinion on Gove’s “provoking” article. He told the audience, “I actually don’t describe myself as pro-Palestine, but pro-humanity. What was missing in your statement was humanity and empathy. It was one of the most grotesque and repulsive statements I have read in the fifteen months of this conflict.” He had listened to Gove’s defense of the article, but ultimately, could not understand its rationale. “Did you do it to sell some papers? What a cheap price to sell them for.” Although, “if it is genuinely what you believe then I hope at some point in your life you recapture some of the humanity that I think was lost by making such an awful statement.”
Yousaf challenged Gove’s claim that “any army in the world makes mistakes”, saying “47,000 Gazians killed is not a mistake. Killing tens of thousands of children is not a mistake. Gaza has been reduced to rubble. Nothing, including the horrific attacks of 7 October justify such devastation, such death, and the massacre of innocent civilians.” He ended his response by telling Michael Gove, “The IDF don’t deserve a Nobel Peace Prize. They deserve to be tried, and I hope that I get to see the day they are held to account for the war crimes they committed.” This speech was met with an enthusiastic and prolonged round of applause, a notable absence from Gove’s defence of Israel.
Nicola Sturgeon held the view that if her government handled the [covid] crisis well…the SNP would have a greater mandate for a second independence referendum.
Carter moved the conversation onwards, to the “original intent of the evening’s discussion”: What is life like as a politician? She highlighted that it can be scary – as the audience had witnessed and even experienced that very evening. She asked the two participants about the Covid pandemic, and their government’s responses. Gove mentioned that their ability to deal with the virus developed alongside the science. He talked of choosing between the “least worst” options at high speed. He suggested that Nicola Sturgeon held the view that if her government handled the crisis well, and thought about Covid first and foremost, the SNP would have a greater mandate for a second independence referendum. For her, the events “happily coincided”, and at a few points the Scottish Government were “differentiating for the sake of differentiating.” Although, most politicians in Westminster and the devolved governments managed to work “across party divisions” throughout the pandemic.
Yousaf began by disagreeing with Gove, saying that the Scottish Government were often “perplexed” at decisions from Westminster. He referenced Partygate, and the difficulty which followed in persuading people to follow the rules. In the 2021 Scottish Election, he claimed “it was Nicola what won it”, due to her handling of the pandemic, which is still “very widely praised.” He claimed that the question of independence “never factored into decisions made.” For Yousaf, the period was defined by politicians being forced to make “the most difficult decisions.” Worried for the future, he told the audience, “we are living in an age of mass disinformation. If and when another pandemic happens, I don’t think we have a strategy to counter it.”
Building on the theme of disinformation, the participants were asked how social media has changed the political landscape. Gove suggested that in the House of Commons, people have taken to speaking in a certain way to create a viral clip. “Debates with nuance” are becoming less common. He also believes algorithms can be dangerous in terms of politics, with the Alternative for Germany (AFD) gaining support in Germany through social media, by targeting those who feel “isolated or locked out of society.” Social media plays into the hands of parties who can best “exploit rage and emotion.”
Yousaf agreed with Gove. Although there are benefits, it can become a “political echo chamber.” He stressed the danger of opening up a platform for the most “vile people” who in pre-social media days would be “eating tuna in their mum’s basements in their Y-fronts.” Nobody would ever hear their opinions, but now they have millions of followers, spreading “crazy disinformation” that we are not counteracting. The far-right agenda in Europe is “the biggest threat to Western democracy.” He also referenced the riots following the Southport terrorist attack, claiming its cause to be “far-right disinformation.”
The discussion was wrapped up with the question; was life as a politician really worth it? According to Yousaf, “the answer is yes.” Politics is the best way to make a difference if you genuinely care about your community and country. He recalled feeling that he must become educated about the world following the 9/11 attacks, and started watching the news regularly. He would often complain to his father about the state of the world – who eventually asked him, “why don’t you just do something about it?” He shared the same advice to the young people in the room. Although it is not always easy, and the landscape is “becoming nastier”, a career in politics is how you can make “arguably, the biggest change.”
Gove detailed his journey into politics, as someone who was also into current affairs. However, he initially believed “it was better to be an observer rather than a participant”, and so went into journalism. He reported on decisions made, and later wrote columns criticising politicians.
Eventually, a friend of his said “if you genuinely believe what you’re writing is important, and politicians are getting things wrong, you should get directly involved,” beginning his route into politics. He told the audience that as a politician, “you can actually drive change you believe to be the most important. Politics is the best way to make a difference.”
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